Have I proselytized you with the Odinic-Tyrrhic distinction? It makes sense of earth-bound worship in a way that doesn't make it gay, although sometimes it can be (as it is right now). The paradigm isn't peculiar to the Germanics and I didn't make it up, I took it from Dumezil who uses much clunkier terms and focuses mostly on the Vedic and Roman branches, who share it. You might get something out of it:
That is a very useful distinction- interesting to note that Tyr derives from Deus, and Odin took his place as king of the gods in the Germanic view, and was probably an actual man (from whom I can claim descent via Ivar the Boneless, son of Aslaug, daughter of Sigurd, descendant of Odin.)
Yes, I was one of the first to proselytize Coulanges’ vision on my old account when Imperium Press first released Ancient City.
I’m not aware of other good sources on this, but De Polignac has an archaeological study: “Cults, Territory, and the Origins of the Greek City State” (iirc) that confirms Coulanges’ theories on the founding of cities, though it’s quite dry and hard to find.
But, once you read Coulanges, traces of ancestor worship are everywhere in ancient texts.
Just now reading this but I wanted to ask to get your thoughts on something. You say that the old Sky Father worship has only ever emerged among Aryans, and I'm inclined to agree with you. I find your theories about the Ancient Israelites originally being a people from north of the Black Sea convincing (Flood=Black Sea deluge, Noah takes his people and flocks and sails to the Pontic Mountains, follow the rivers south into Mesopotamia before Abraham crosses into Canaan, etc.) However, this raises the question of the Arabs/Moslems. Obviously they were a Sky Father worshiping, warlike, tribal people. Do you think that they were a group that split off from a previous group of Aryans and went south into the desert or that they may be a truly exceptional second group where the Father worship emerged organically?
The J-haplotype, or Arab ancestry, has been indigenous to Arabia since before the Black Sea deluge. The Arabs were nomadic and tribal, but also animist. I do not believe they had a patriarchal religion before contact with Persia and so on. I may be wrong, but I imagine that if there was a hint of Deus in the old Arab religion, it would not have been so heavily destroyed and redacted by Mohamed. The addition of a sky father may have been Persian influence in the region. Before Persian contact, I do not think we have any information about the beliefs of Arabian desert tribesmen.
War is the father of invention. If, in the far future, the colony expands to take over the world, the tension and conflict between its child states is the right environment to spur space colonization. But we must focus on the horizon in front of us and not the horizon past that.
The most ancient form of the first religion on the steppe is not conducive to cooperation in a complex society, but having this “type 1” religion is absolutely essential, even though the tensions between it and civilization have never been entirely resolved.
Well if a colony in Africa is your goal one of your most immediate problems is going to be the fact that any successful colonists are highly likely to start taking local wives, with all the consequences thereof. See South America.
The problem with having zero compunctions about doing whatever you want to anyone identified as outgroup is you're creating an incredibly strong incentive for someone else to label you outgroup and do the same to you. A society where perfect strangers can trust one another and act in concert is one that will crush a society where you can't get past dunbar's number. You need, like it or not, some sense that the people you don't immediately know and who aren't of your clan are people are of some degree of moral significance (at least enough to make an attempt to cooperate with) if you're going to get anywhere.
Banging the local women will have to be prohibited. We won't be able to fully prevent it, but it will be shamed if public, and marriage with them will be illegal and their issue will not be legally recognized. The plan is to raid white coastal areas for wives.
"you're creating an incredibly strong incentive for someone else to label you outgroup and do the same to you"
Yes, further conflict will be inevitable. But there was no retaliatory piracy, at least none significant enough for history to mention, from the Britons against the Saxons, or the English against the Norse.
"A society where perfect strangers can trust one another and act in concert is one that will crush a society where you can't get past dunbar's number."
I am well aware. My motherland of Scotland never got past Dunbar-level coordination, and thus they got beaten and conquered by the English, who did get past Dunbar-level cooperation, to a minor degree after William the Conqueror and to a great, perhaps the greatest in history, degree after Charles II and the Restoration. But England, before Alfred the Great unified it, was much like Scotland; a clannish society of small territories in constant feud.
There is no society like the former, a post-Dunbar, existing anywhere in the world today. And to get to the former, you have to go through the latter. Most societies get stuck at Dunbar-level cooperation if they ever make it that far, yes. But Dunbar-level cooperation is still capable of very great glories. Classical civilization from the founding of Sparta to the fall of Rome never made it past Dunbar-level cooperation. But that is no reason not to try. Trying requires social technology and shared faith that transcends personal loyalty. But, need personal loyalty before you can even try, and there is no personal loyalty and no shared faith, not even among right-wingers. There is a reason, a very big reason, I wrote The City, and detailed exactly how societies escaped the Dunbar limit. How we sow the seeds of a future social technology and faith that allows Neo-Lacedaemonia to escape the Dunbar limit is a matter for a different post.
Have I proselytized you with the Odinic-Tyrrhic distinction? It makes sense of earth-bound worship in a way that doesn't make it gay, although sometimes it can be (as it is right now). The paradigm isn't peculiar to the Germanics and I didn't make it up, I took it from Dumezil who uses much clunkier terms and focuses mostly on the Vedic and Roman branches, who share it. You might get something out of it:
https://imperiumpress.substack.com/p/the-odinic-vs-the-tyrrhic
That is a very useful distinction- interesting to note that Tyr derives from Deus, and Odin took his place as king of the gods in the Germanic view, and was probably an actual man (from whom I can claim descent via Ivar the Boneless, son of Aslaug, daughter of Sigurd, descendant of Odin.)
Great article.
I see some The Ancient City influence in this. Any other books you recommend on the Aryan natty religion of ancestor worship?
Yes, I was one of the first to proselytize Coulanges’ vision on my old account when Imperium Press first released Ancient City.
I’m not aware of other good sources on this, but De Polignac has an archaeological study: “Cults, Territory, and the Origins of the Greek City State” (iirc) that confirms Coulanges’ theories on the founding of cities, though it’s quite dry and hard to find.
But, once you read Coulanges, traces of ancestor worship are everywhere in ancient texts.
Reminds me a bit of Melvin Gorham's The Pagan Bible too at times (an obscure, off-the-radar text but topically similar).
Interesting discussion. Hope it inspires inspired follow-ups.
Just now reading this but I wanted to ask to get your thoughts on something. You say that the old Sky Father worship has only ever emerged among Aryans, and I'm inclined to agree with you. I find your theories about the Ancient Israelites originally being a people from north of the Black Sea convincing (Flood=Black Sea deluge, Noah takes his people and flocks and sails to the Pontic Mountains, follow the rivers south into Mesopotamia before Abraham crosses into Canaan, etc.) However, this raises the question of the Arabs/Moslems. Obviously they were a Sky Father worshiping, warlike, tribal people. Do you think that they were a group that split off from a previous group of Aryans and went south into the desert or that they may be a truly exceptional second group where the Father worship emerged organically?
The J-haplotype, or Arab ancestry, has been indigenous to Arabia since before the Black Sea deluge. The Arabs were nomadic and tribal, but also animist. I do not believe they had a patriarchal religion before contact with Persia and so on. I may be wrong, but I imagine that if there was a hint of Deus in the old Arab religion, it would not have been so heavily destroyed and redacted by Mohamed. The addition of a sky father may have been Persian influence in the region. Before Persian contact, I do not think we have any information about the beliefs of Arabian desert tribesmen.
Good thoughts
So what even theoretically is the endgame meant to be here? Just fight one another forever until some act of cosmic randomness obliterates us?
War is the father of invention. If, in the far future, the colony expands to take over the world, the tension and conflict between its child states is the right environment to spur space colonization. But we must focus on the horizon in front of us and not the horizon past that.
The most ancient form of the first religion on the steppe is not conducive to cooperation in a complex society, but having this “type 1” religion is absolutely essential, even though the tensions between it and civilization have never been entirely resolved.
Well if a colony in Africa is your goal one of your most immediate problems is going to be the fact that any successful colonists are highly likely to start taking local wives, with all the consequences thereof. See South America.
The problem with having zero compunctions about doing whatever you want to anyone identified as outgroup is you're creating an incredibly strong incentive for someone else to label you outgroup and do the same to you. A society where perfect strangers can trust one another and act in concert is one that will crush a society where you can't get past dunbar's number. You need, like it or not, some sense that the people you don't immediately know and who aren't of your clan are people are of some degree of moral significance (at least enough to make an attempt to cooperate with) if you're going to get anywhere.
Banging the local women will have to be prohibited. We won't be able to fully prevent it, but it will be shamed if public, and marriage with them will be illegal and their issue will not be legally recognized. The plan is to raid white coastal areas for wives.
"you're creating an incredibly strong incentive for someone else to label you outgroup and do the same to you"
Yes, further conflict will be inevitable. But there was no retaliatory piracy, at least none significant enough for history to mention, from the Britons against the Saxons, or the English against the Norse.
"A society where perfect strangers can trust one another and act in concert is one that will crush a society where you can't get past dunbar's number."
I am well aware. My motherland of Scotland never got past Dunbar-level coordination, and thus they got beaten and conquered by the English, who did get past Dunbar-level cooperation, to a minor degree after William the Conqueror and to a great, perhaps the greatest in history, degree after Charles II and the Restoration. But England, before Alfred the Great unified it, was much like Scotland; a clannish society of small territories in constant feud.
There is no society like the former, a post-Dunbar, existing anywhere in the world today. And to get to the former, you have to go through the latter. Most societies get stuck at Dunbar-level cooperation if they ever make it that far, yes. But Dunbar-level cooperation is still capable of very great glories. Classical civilization from the founding of Sparta to the fall of Rome never made it past Dunbar-level cooperation. But that is no reason not to try. Trying requires social technology and shared faith that transcends personal loyalty. But, need personal loyalty before you can even try, and there is no personal loyalty and no shared faith, not even among right-wingers. There is a reason, a very big reason, I wrote The City, and detailed exactly how societies escaped the Dunbar limit. How we sow the seeds of a future social technology and faith that allows Neo-Lacedaemonia to escape the Dunbar limit is a matter for a different post.